More About This Episode For this episode, Zach and Beth respond to questions from Steve and Deanna about Venveo’s company and its culture, along with tips people could use in the industry. Transcript Deanna: After successfully gaining and then retaining control of The Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, Steve Coffee and myself, decided to do something that hasn't been done in the last 100 episodes. We decided to interview our hosts. During today's episode, we talk about Zach's dorm room ambitions and the single most impactful piece of advice that Beth wants to share with the world. This is an episode that you won't want to miss. Voiceover: Welcome to the smarter building materials marketing podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales and outperform your competition. Deanna: Hi everyone. I'm Deanna Murphy and welcome to The Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast. I'm here with my co host, Steve Coffey. Welcome Steve. Steve: Hey Deanna, Good to be here. Deanna: Good. This week, we're still celebrating the 100th episode of The Building Materials Marketing Podcast. We have again hijacked this episode. It is episode 101 and today we will be doing a Marketing 101 with Venveo's Founder, Zach Williams and our Director of Strategy, Beth Pop-Nikolov. So let's get into the episode. So Beth, as the director of strategy, you have close, intimate insight into what's working across many different building materials companies. Can you tell me what is one of your favorite tactics that you've seen? And I'd like to hear it pre-COVID and post-COVID. Beth: Because nothing will ever be the same again, post-COVID. Deanna: True that. Zach: Well, can I just hijack this question real quickly? Can I just let everybody know that Beth went on maternity leave right as COVID started? Beth: Yes. Zach: Impeccable timing. Beth: Yeah. I went on maternity leave and then three weeks later the world came crashing down. I got to live in this lovely bubble, not actually recognizing how terrible it was because you don't leave the house with a newborn anyway, and then came back and everything was different and nothing will ever be the same again. It's a wild ride, no matter what seat you are sitting in, newborn life or not. There's actually a strategy that we've seen manufacturers pick up on probably about six to 12 months pre-COVID. So let's say mid 2019, we started to really see some traction and focus on building better relationships with dealers and distributors. So dealers and distributors are what a lot of manufacturers would say are the bread and butter of their sales. There's obviously kinks in that supply chain effort but that's not what we're talking about right now. So we started working with some manufacturers to just build better communication channels with them. How do we offer them materials to have better conversations with the customers that they are serving? And the manufacturers that were in that process were set up so well, to move into the post-COVID era, mid-COVID era, wherever it is that we currently are because that's the name of the game right now is communication. So I think that's kind of a cop out answer because I'm answering both of your questions with one fell swoop. But what I want to say is I think it's a cop out answer but it's an important lesson learned. Communication and relationship building is always going to be the best avenue forward, when it comes to marketing and when it comes to sales. So they were building dealer relationships by sending them newsletters with dealer specific information. Here's how to talk to your architects about our product. Here's how another dealer in our service solved a really complex problem and how you can talk to your customers about solving that really complex problem, also. That need will never change. It doesn't matter what happens in 2021. We still need to be building good communication and good relationships with our audience. Deanna: That's really smart. That got my wheels turning almost immediately. Like, ooh, dealer newsletters and how can we share? What's working at one dealer with another dealer? Beth: Right? We're all in this together so let's share that good information and dealers are so under serviced. There's so much emphasis put on a lot of the players in the channel and dealers and distributors are often at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to who gets the most marketing share from manufacturers, even though they hold a lot of that purchase power. Deanna: It's really smart. Steve: Beth, I have a question for you. And that was a really good explanation. Given that information that you've gained from the last 100 guests being on the episode, not all the episodes, but most of the episodes, how has that information that you've gained from the podcast guests positively influenced or changed the direction of account strategy at Venveo? How has that grown and adapted? Beth: I mean, we can't do what we do at Venveo without having direct conversation and direct feedback from the channel. So while we were confident before we had launched the podcast, because we've always spent a lot of time talking to manufacturers, talking to architects and designers and builders, the podcast has opened up a platform where it's nonstop. So we don't have to just be at an event, be at a trade show that's related to building materials in order to get in front of our audience and ask them all of our good questions but we're able to meet with people on a weekly, bi-weekly... I mean, sometimes we're recording three or four podcasts in a single week basis and then immediately able to have those conversations with the team. Because basically everybody at Venveo is obsessed with what we do. So all the time, no sooner do we end a podcast conversation that I'm jumping on Slack or shooting a Zoom to the account strategist being like, "Guys, listen, I just talked to this person and they have all of this data that we talked about on the show and I'm so excited and let's talk about it right now." And so I think it's just spurred on our love and obsession with all of the data and insights and into the building materials. And I think the other thing that has really made us feel like there's this community because there's not a lot of people seeking out building their marketing infrastructure around building materials, except for there is. That could be the perception. Then we opened up the podcast and suddenly it's, there is this entire community, this entire world of people who see the potential and the need for really incredible marketing in the building materials channel and frankly manufacturers who have really incredible marketing, really incredible understanding of what their audience needs from them and in such creative ways of delivering that. And I think building those relationships has been a really cool bonus. I don't know if I answered your question exactly. Zach: No. If I can piggyback off that, Beth, I think that the community elements are really important because I think that's the thing I hear from a lot of people after they come on the show. Beth: Yeah, that's a really good point. Zach: They're like, "I'm in marketing groups, I'm in leadership groups, but I've never met a group of people that's in specifically, this building product space." And I think that community element is really, really important. And that's not something I think we knew was needed when we started the podcast. Beth: Yeah. Zach: But I think it's been a really cool benefit. Beth: I totally agree with that. Deanna: That's really great. So Beth, if you could give every manufacturer one piece of advice regarding their digital marketing strategy, what would it be? Beth: Oh, it's Venveo's Unofficial tagline. Deanna: Yes. Beth: Nobody cares about you. Zach: Hopefully you're listening to this on a Monday morning, first thing, right? It's really motivational. Beth: It's really, it's nobody cares about you. So that's harsh but it's true. I mean, if you've listened to any handful of our episodes, it's a constant theme, it's not about you. Your marketing, it's not about you. Your marketing is about your customer, your marketing. It's not about how long you've been in business and your features and benefits. It's about what are your customer's pain points and how can you help solve them? So you put your customer first and sales. That's a pretty big no-brainer. You're having good customer first conversations with them in sales. But then when it comes to marketing, when it comes to writing things down, people just kind of freak out and their brains break and they just need to talk about who they are and how great they are because they're worried you won't know. But I think it's that. It has to be about your customer. It has to be about your customer's pain points and solving their problems. It's not about you and how long you've been in business or the features and benefits of your products. It's results. Steve: Okay. So then I have one question based on that, being that it's about your results. And I actually like both of you to give your take on this. A lot of times and being in sales, I'm on the front lines, as far as the questions that we receive from Venveo and questions that clients have, problems that they have and things like that, as well as you Deanna, on the account strategy side, one of the things is a website. So if you don't mind, tell me some leading indicators that a building materials brand needs a new website. What is the leading indicator that they need to invest and build out and spend the time and the effort on a new website and possibly give us an example of a manufacturer's website, who's doing it really well? Zach: So this is probably a very unpopular opinion, but I always tend to believe that you should wait as long as possible to not redesign your website. The reason being is there's so many different things you could do today to get better results other than redesigning your website, which is kind of funny because that's a big part of what we do at Venveo. I'm not saying you should never do it but what I am saying is, people jump to that and go, "Oh, our marketing isn't good. Let's redesign our site." I tend to believe that you should only redesign your site when the technology platform that is your website, is actually hurting your ability to execute all of the existing strategy. So there are things you could be doing today to get more leads or drive awareness or connect with your audience, using a bunch of different tactics, whether that's email or social or content or SEO or whatever it might be. If your website is in and on itself, hurting that effort because the technology and the framework around it isn't structured the right way, that's when you should do it. Because you can make copy changes on your site. You can add calls to action on your site. You can make improvements to your site but undergoing a big redesign is a big decision. It's a big commitment and it's a lot of work. And it takes longer to see the return from that because you're going to spend three, six, nine, 12 months redesigning it. And so I always, when someone comes to us and they're like, "Hey, I want you all to redesign our site." We're like, "Well, why? Tell me why? Does the data say you should? Or do you actually just need to improve the copy on your site? Or do you actually just need to think about the UX?" That's probably not what you wanted to hear Steve, but that's like my honest response. Steve: Yeah. That's perfect. And I think it's really true. A lot of times they can be investing in aesthetic changes and like you said, go with the underlying technology that actually drives results. Beth, what is your take on that question? Beth: I mean, I obviously totally agree with Zach. I think a lot of times, there's just a perception that I need to do a website redesign because my site is ugly. I've actually sat in on architects, on a research project, where we watched architects navigate through a website. Now, if you put that website in front of a bunch of marketers, we all had very nitpicky because we're nothing, if not opinionated. We all had very nitpicky things of, "Oh, we don't like this. We don't like that." And architects are known for their high aesthetic requirements, right? That's what makes them good at their job. Not a single architect pointed out any of the things that we, sitting in the marketer's seat, would have thought they would have been like, "Nope, I'm out of here. This is ugly." So it's not simply like, it's not beautiful enough. I think it has to do with, you have to know the why because you are in for the long haul and you are going to want to abandon ship. And your why has to be, we're not able to drive leads and sales. We are misaligned with our business goals. We are not able to launch an e-commerce platform or properly service the channel. We want to have a dealer portal. Something like that, to Zach's point, it's technology or business goal prohibited, then you need to start looking at a website redesign. I think the other is, that would be a technology red flag is, if you want to launch a product and you have to consider a microsite because your website does not allow for that product within your current navigation, or you just literally can't add more pages because of whatever technology issue block, that would be an indicator that you probably need a new website, regardless of how beautiful or not beautiful it is. Zach: Yeah. I mean, what you're talking about there Beth is speed. Beth: Yeah. Zach: How quickly can you launch platforms? How quickly can you integrate within your CRM or other automation tools? I think that's a technology issue for sure. And that's when you should consider it, but to your point, I don't like the way my site looks. There's things you can do to improve that without upending everything. Beth: Right. Exactly. Deanna: So Beth, I want to hear your take on what has been your favorite podcast episode of the last 100? Which one stands out to you? Beth: Just about any time it comes up, I will take any and all data. I'm just a total data nerd. I love insights, I love customer research, I look market research. I just find it absolutely fascinating. We had an incredible conversation with Doug Jennings from Lowe's and he talked a lot about how Lowe's uses their customer data to drive sales and not just drive sales, but like I can recognize that you have not purchased a refrigerator within the last number of months. I also know that based on other data refrigerator purchases typically go up June, July, specifically. So in June, July, you are going to start to get refrigerator newsletters in your inbox. I mean, Doug, if you're listening, I'm like totally boiling down to just some very, very basic stuff. The incredibly intricate work that you do, forgive me for this very basic example but that's really incredible. As a manufacturer on the flip side, if you market to contractors and you have a contractor in your past purchase funnel, but you know they haven't purchased from me in 18 months, I know that renovations typically go up in the fall time and I know he's going to have some renovation projects. My product is specifically the best for single story home renovation projects in this specific geographic area where he is. I'm going to start targeting him in August. You can't tell me that that's not compelling. If that starts showing up in your inbox, exactly when you need it, I haven't bought this product but I do have projects coming up for it, you are the one I'm purchasing from. That's your email marketing to a whole new level because you're using it based on data. I've totally diatribed. See, this is what I'm talking about. Any data, I just love it because it means that you're basically making marketing science and able to move borderline in fact. That's powerful stuff. I love it. I just absolutely love it. Steve: I could be wrong, but I think everyone at Venveo really likes data. Beth: Yeah. We like it so much. Steve: Yeah. I think we all get that. Deanna: It makes my heart happy when you're talking about being able to see those correlations and being able to have those insights going into a campaign. It's so reassuring and validating to enter a project that way. Steve: Zach, what are some of the biggest challenges the companies have to overcome when launching a digital marketing strategy? This is a big question but maybe just the top three takeaways or what comes to your mind? What are the biggest challenges that companies have to overcome when launching a digital strategy? Zach: We've interviewed a lot of people on the show that we've talked to them about getting off the ground when it comes to digital marketing. And I think the common thread that I've seen is just that they don't need to feel like they have to do everything at once. It's like biting off something small and doing that really, really, really well. And then stacking additional things on top of it once you get that down. Because the hard thing about digital marketing is that there's so much you could be doing. And part of the reason why we have this podcast is to try to help people figure out, well, where do I start? But if you just look at all that, instead of figuring out, well, where's the one area where I'm feeling like I'm going to get the most impact, instead of doing that, people go, "I got to do everything," and then they don't know what to measure, they don't know what's working, they don't have the right insights into Beth's point earlier. You just don't have the right data. You don't know how to collect that. I think that's the big issue. I would also kind of point back to Beth's thing is you can be doing a lot. You can have a lot of activity but you don't know that activity is actually pointing back to sales. And so that's why analytics and data is critical. And it's also why feedback from your sales team is really important. One thing we always try to do at Venveo is whenever we bring on a client, we also make sure that there's a really good feedback loop from sales to marketing, to ensure that as leads come in, those leads are being validated. We're understanding which leads are working, which ones are not. Not very qualified. I would argue that those two things are critical. It's just focusing on a smaller area when you're launching and then making sure that you've got the right measurement tools and right tracking and analytics and feedback from your team to know what's working and what's not. Deanna: That's awesome. So Zach you're at this point, running an agency of almost 40 people. We know that you launched Venveo in your dorm room over a decade ago. So when you look at Venveo, what it used to be and what it's become now, does it match your vision? Does it match your expectation? Zach: Well, and technically I didn't start it in my dorm room. I started doing what I do in my dorm room and I think I launched then Venveo officially, after I moved off campus. I want to make sure there's a clear distinction. Deanna: Zach never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Zach: I'm just kidding. I didn't really set out to create a company of this size. I just really like the work. I really like the work and I'm after the work. I like getting results and I like the aspect of how marketing right now, there's science and there's art. And I think that's where I'm personally bent. So I would argue that it's probably better than what I envisioned. I'm not just saying that because you guys are on the podcast but it's been really cool. I mean, for me, it's been a big triumph of my life to be able to do this. And I think a big part of it is the people too. If I didn't like you all, this would be horrible. I mean that. Who you work with is everything. And I can't think of one person... I'm so nervous to be honest with you guys. I'm so nervous when we hire somebody because I'm like, if they disrupt this thing, I'm going to be so mad at them because we don't have cliques. We don't. Deanna: I remember my husband telling me that he read a statistic once. It was something along the lines of basically 20% of the employees do 80% of the work at an organization. And he said that to me. And I was like, “Not at Venveo.” Beth: Not at Venveo. Nope. Deanna: I couldn't even think of one person that that applied to here. Steve: Yeah. Zach: Nick? Deanna: Nick. Other than Nick. Zach: Yeah, other than Nick. Deanna: What does that guy even do? Zach: Nick is the head of our data and analytics, for those of you don't know him. He's incredible. Beth: He's the literal best. Zach: He's incredible. Deanna: So I have kind of a follow up question to that. So how do you help maintain the company culture as it grows and as it scales? We are growing really quickly. We're all working to scale our roles and to bring new employees on. How do you keep that culture, as it gets larger? Zach: There's a really good book that I read years ago that I've tried to model a lot of Venveo after. There's this book. If you haven't read it, it's called The Outsiders. They do like an excerpt and research and 10 or 12 different companies that have outperformed their industry. And one of the things that really resonated with me in that book, is how much the companies that succeeded focused on decentralization and autonomy. So in comparison, a centralized organization would be like Apple and Steve Jobs was there. It was like everything pointed to Steve. All decisions came to him, and that worked for Apple. But for us, I've always tried to create an organization where people feel the weight and the pressure and the autonomy to do their job and to do it well. So, it's really apparent when they're doing well and it's really apparent when they're not. You tend to recruit people that like that because it's very apparent when you're interviewing and then be like that's our expectation. And so from a culture perspective, I think that's worked out really well because we have people who naturally want to win. And I think everyone thinks they want to win, but not everyone can thrive in that kind of environment. And so I think it's worked out well but I mean, I would ask you guys, is this a good answer or am I totally off? Like, this is my perception and you guys can be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, Zach, it's not." Do you know what I'm saying? Steve: We're afraid to say. Zach: You're afraid to say. Awkward silence. The episode's ending. Steve: Tell us how you really feel, on the air. No, I think you're exactly right, Zach and I think what we have is essentially you've brought experts in their field together and you've said do your work. Do your work well. You have the freedom to be able to do what you do really well without that centralized approach. And that's very effective. Zach: I just tell people, I'm like, "Hey, I don't care when you work just as long as you get your 80 hours a week in. That's perfectly fine with me." Steve: We're tracking it. Zach: Yeah. Deanna: Love it. Beth: Zach, you said a long time ago to me, it's like years ago, when we really started to grow and now we're starting to hire, in the interview process more frequently, you said we hire for culture first and talent second. And I think we've stayed really true to that and that's what makes the difference. To your point, one, we love everyone we work with. But two, we spend a lot of time with these people and our clients spend a lot of time with our team. If I don't like your personality in a work environment, chances are your client might not like your personality in a working relationship. And that's going to be detrimental to the partnership that Venveo is able to offer them, frankly, the results that we're able to achieve. And I think that's really made a big difference in who we are and how we function as a team. Now you're allowed to be an individual. We want you to be whoever you are, but you're not allowed to be a jerk. Deanna: I can speak to that a little bit too, Zach. You mentioned giving employees the ownership and the weight. And I think we all feel that. And I say that in a good way. If I think about leaving Venveo and I'm like, "Who would take care of my clients? They're like my children and I have been given the responsibility of managing them and of cultivating them and helping them grow." And I think it speaks to our retention as well. Our culture and our retention, the idea of leaving them is painful to me. I don't know how I would even do it. So I definitely think you have hired people who want to win and want to win for our clients. Zach: Good. I'm glad we're doing that. I think it's really good. I know this section, it might feel like it's about Venveo but I think it's valid for anybody who's involved in hiring and building culture, which is, I've always believed that if you create really good boundaries for people and you give them responsibility and ownership but at the same time you tell them like, "Hey, you're going to make a mistake and I'm going to own that for you." That creates the right kind of trust with people because if your team isn't willing to risk, because they're afraid of how you're going to respond, you will only get smaller as an organization, no matter how many people you have. And so that for me, has been really important is, whenever somebody comes on board at Venveo, I always try to tell them like, "Hey, I want you to know that you're going to make a mistake and it'll probably be huge. And I want you to know that I'm going to own that for you and that's going to be my mistake because I want you to know how important it is for you to feel like you can make a mistake or you can do something wrong and it's not the end of the world." Deanna: Absolutely. Steve: So I have one more question for Zach and then we can bring it to a close with one question that I want both of you to chime in on. Zach, what is your favorite podcast, besides this one? What was your favorite podcast? Zach: Oh gosh. I like all of our episodes. For our listeners, there's episodes we've recorded, we haven't released because we just thought they weren't very good. So I like all of our episodes. Just saying that. We care a lot about the content. I don't know if you all saw this. Wall Street Journal has linked to a couple of our episodes. It's pretty wild. Deanna: I didn't know that. Zach: Yeah. I was doing some research on our backlinks and I was like, "Oh, we've hit..." I know, right? Such a digital marketer. I'm like looking at our domain authority increase and like what's going on here. And it's like, Inc is linking to us, Wall Street Journal is linking to us. I was like, "Oh, that's really cool." Steve: You sound surprised. I heard that and I was like, "Oh, it make sense to me." Zach: Well, yes. I mean, it's cool. It's just cool to see. I just wish they'd let me know, instead of me getting update, like in the DA report or something. The most recent one I could think back to is episode 71 with Lisa Prestifilippo. She works for the metal sales manufacturing corporation. She talks about Amazon versus Home Depot versus Lowe's. Beth: So good. Zach: It was so good. Beth: It was so good. Zach: Because she says things and I'm like, "Man, I can't believe you said that in that way." And it was just very insightful from a manufacturer's perspective who sells online, at that amount and that level. I thought it was really helpful because we get the question a lot about, "Hey, well, should we list on this website? Should we sell online here? Should we do this here?" And having a manufacturer give that kind of information from their perspective, not just hearing it from us, I think is really helpful. I point to that episode a lot in talking to people in our e-commerce strategy that we provide. So I really liked that one. But honestly, I really like all of them. There's people we've had on multiple times too. I really like the ones where it's mostly just me talking. I really like hearing myself talk. Deanna: Don’t we all. Beth: We all do. We all feel that way. Steve: Okay. I have one question that I wanted both of you to chime in on. Beth, if you could give every manufacturer one piece of advice, regarding their marketing strategy, which is a very hard question to answer and to boil down, if you could give every manufacturer one piece of advice regarding their digital marketing strategy, what would it be? Beth: I'm trying to think of something different than it's not about you. Zach: Well, I have my answer. You want me to go first? Beth: Yeah. Zach, go first and then I'll just rephrase whatever Zach says and people will think I'm smart too. Zach: I think that digital marketing and marketing as a whole, is like Starbucks, right? Starbucks took a very simple idea and they executed it incredibly well. It's like, we feel like we have to come up with these huge, massive ideas in our marketing and really what it is, it's about consistency. It's like going to the gym. I want to have abs when I go to the beach. In order for me to have abs, I have to consistently go to the gym. And so I think with marketing, you've got to be very, very consistent and you have to execute at an incredibly high level. And as marketers, I do this. It's like we can rebuild everything. We can do all of these new things. And we love to do new things. And granted, those things are important and you can have big wins there but without consistency and without incredible execution, like making sure that you do it on a daily level, it doesn't matter. Really, you just won't see wins. People are like, "Hey, I want to run... I want to test this thing out for three months," and they don't do it at all. Beth: Yeah. I totally agree with that. Zach: Just don't even do it. Beth: Yeah. Zach: Save your time. I was talking to somebody the other day and they're like, "Hey, I want to try building an online community for six months." I was like, "Why don't you save yourself a lot of heartache and not do it at all?" This is what I told them. Because you are just going to start to win barely, in that amount of time. Our attention span today, as people, it's like a goldfish. So for you to create momentum in your marketing, you've got to do it over and over and over and over again. When you're beating a dead horse, that's when you're starting to actually break through. Deanna: That's really good. I feel like I just learned so much. Zach: Just soak in that for a moment. Deanna: Let's just all just take a moment of silence for how smart Zach is. Beth: I think if I could say anything I 1000% agree. I think the other thing is the first piece that you said, which is keeping it simple. Let's avoid that trigger that makes us feel like if it was really truly marketing, it would be something completely brand new. What your audience needs to see is an answer to their question. And so if they didn't research some newfangled term that you came up, that makes you feel like your product is bigger than it is. Starbucks sells coffee. Now we make very complicated orders and we feel very fancy doing it. But it's coffee and a cup, man. That's really clear. I know exactly what box to put them in, in my brain and all of the reasons that I'm willing to pay $9 for the concoction that I can dig up for them. And I think it has to be the same for your marketing. If you sell nails, like "What do you sell?" "Nails." Not like titanium, blah, blah, blah, blah board holders. "I sell nails." "Good. I need nails." "Great. I don't need titanium board holders. I came here looking for nails." Let's just get to the point and say what it is. I think the last thing I would say is I was just researching about the chatbot project that we're working on and came across this quote that we all know so well, but it's that what gets measured gets done. Zach: Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Beth: And there's this preconceived notion within people outside of marketing who want to engage with marketing, that marketing is smoke and mirrors. And digital marketing should be the exact opposite. There should be no confusion about how much money you spent and what you achieved with those efforts. You should be able to measure almost anything that you're doing and have a strong understanding of whether or not it's working. Child: Mommy. Mommy. Zach: We're in COVID. This is happening. Deanna: Working from home. Zach: Right. So we're going to wrap up the episode now, if I'm allowed to do that, but I want to just quickly thank- Deanna: Yes please. Zach: … Deanna and Steve for doing last episode and doing this episode. This was their idea. Beth: You guys crushed it. I love it. You crushed it. Zach: You guys did really well but you're never coming on the show again. Yeah No, I'm just kidding. Deanna: Yeah. Thank you for entrusting us with all this hard work that you've built over the last 100 episodes. It's a big responsibility. Zach: Right? It's cool. Deanna: I feel honored to be trusted and be leading it. Zach: Awesome. Well for our listeners out there, I just want to personally thank each and every one of you, this is a lot of work, but it's a lot of fun and I encourage you to make sure you share the episode. If you've got colleagues or you want to write us a review, that means a lot to us on Apple podcasts. But, until next time I'm Zach Williams alongside Beth Pop-Nikolov, Deanna Murphy and Steve Coffey. Thanks everybody. Voiceover: You've been listening to Smarter Building Materials Marketing with Zach Williams and Beth PopNikolov. To get the resources mentioned in this podcast visit Venveo.com/podcast. Thank you for listening.
More About This Episode For this episode, Zach and Beth respond to questions from Steve and Deanna about Venveo’s company and its culture, along with tips people could use in the industry. Transcript Deanna: After successfully gaining and then retaining control of The Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, Steve Coffee and myself, decided to do something that hasn't been done in the last 100 episodes. We decided to interview our hosts. During today's episode, we talk about Zach's dorm room ambitions and the single most impactful piece of advice that Beth wants to share with the world. This is an episode that you won't want to miss. Voiceover: Welcome to the smarter building materials marketing podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales and outperform your competition. Deanna: Hi everyone. I'm Deanna Murphy and welcome to The Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast. I'm here with my co host, Steve Coffey. Welcome Steve. Steve: Hey Deanna, Good to be here. Deanna: Good. This week, we're still celebrating the 100th episode of The Building Materials Marketing Podcast. We have again hijacked this episode. It is episode 101 and today we will be doing a Marketing 101 with Venveo's Founder, Zach Williams and our Director of Strategy, Beth Pop-Nikolov. So let's get into the episode. So Beth, as the director of strategy, you have close, intimate insight into what's working across many different building materials companies. Can you tell me what is one of your favorite tactics that you've seen? And I'd like to hear it pre-COVID and post-COVID. Beth: Because nothing will ever be the same again, post-COVID. Deanna: True that. Zach: Well, can I just hijack this question real quickly? Can I just let everybody know that Beth went on maternity leave right as COVID started? Beth: Yes. Zach: Impeccable timing. Beth: Yeah. I went on maternity leave and then three weeks later the world came crashing down. I got to live in this lovely bubble, not actually recognizing how terrible it was because you don't leave the house with a newborn anyway, and then came back and everything was different and nothing will ever be the same again. It's a wild ride, no matter what seat you are sitting in, newborn life or not. There's actually a strategy that we've seen manufacturers pick up on probably about six to 12 months pre-COVID. So let's say mid 2019, we started to really see some traction and focus on building better relationships with dealers and distributors. So dealers and distributors are what a lot of manufacturers would say are the bread and butter of their sales. There's obviously kinks in that supply chain effort but that's not what we're talking about right now. So we started working with some manufacturers to just build better communication channels with them. How do we offer them materials to have better conversations with the customers that they are serving? And the manufacturers that were in that process were set up so well, to move into the post-COVID era, mid-COVID era, wherever it is that we currently are because that's the name of the game right now is communication. So I think that's kind of a cop out answer because I'm answering both of your questions with one fell swoop. But what I want to say is I think it's a cop out answer but it's an important lesson learned. Communication and relationship building is always going to be the best avenue forward, when it comes to marketing and when it comes to sales. So they were building dealer relationships by sending them newsletters with dealer specific information. Here's how to talk to your architects about our product. Here's how another dealer in our service solved a really complex problem and how you can talk to your customers about solving that really complex problem, also. That need will never change. It doesn't matter what happens in 2021. We still need to be building good communication and good relationships with our audience. Deanna: That's really smart. That got my wheels turning almost immediately. Like, ooh, dealer newsletters and how can we share? What's working at one dealer with another dealer? Beth: Right? We're all in this together so let's share that good information and dealers are so under serviced. There's so much emphasis put on a lot of the players in the channel and dealers and distributors are often at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to who gets the most marketing share from manufacturers, even though they hold a lot of that purchase power. Deanna: It's really smart.
Steve: Beth, I have a question for you. And that was a really good explanation. Given that information that you've gained from the last 100 guests being on the episode, not all the episodes, but most of the episodes, how has that information that you've gained from the podcast guests positively influenced or changed the direction of account strategy at Venveo? How has that grown and adapted? Beth: I mean, we can't do what we do at Venveo without having direct conversation and direct feedback from the channel. So while we were confident before we had launched the podcast, because we've always spent a lot of time talking to manufacturers, talking to architects and designers and builders, the podcast has opened up a platform where it's nonstop. So we don't have to just be at an event, be at a trade show that's related to building materials in order to get in front of our audience and ask them all of our good questions but we're able to meet with people on a weekly, bi-weekly... I mean, sometimes we're recording three or four podcasts in a single week basis and then immediately able to have those conversations with the team. Because basically everybody at Venveo is obsessed with what we do. So all the time, no sooner do we end a podcast conversation that I'm jumping on Slack or shooting a Zoom to the account strategist being like, "Guys, listen, I just talked to this person and they have all of this data that we talked about on the show and I'm so excited and let's talk about it right now." And so I think it's just spurred on our love and obsession with all of the data and insights and into the building materials. And I think the other thing that has really made us feel like there's this community because there's not a lot of people seeking out building their marketing infrastructure around building materials, except for there is. That could be the perception. Then we opened up the podcast and suddenly it's, there is this entire community, this entire world of people who see the potential and the need for really incredible marketing in the building materials channel and frankly manufacturers who have really incredible marketing, really incredible understanding of what their audience needs from them and in such creative ways of delivering that. And I think building those relationships has been a really cool bonus. I don't know if I answered your question exactly. Zach: No. If I can piggyback off that, Beth, I think that the community elements are really important because I think that's the thing I hear from a lot of people after they come on the show. Beth: Yeah, that's a really good point. Zach: They're like, "I'm in marketing groups, I'm in leadership groups, but I've never met a group of people that's in specifically, this building product space." And I think that community element is really, really important. And that's not something I think we knew was needed when we started the podcast. Beth: Yeah. Zach: But I think it's been a really cool benefit. Beth: I totally agree with that. Deanna: That's really great. So Beth, if you could give every manufacturer one piece of advice regarding their digital marketing strategy, what would it be? Beth: Oh, it's Venveo's Unofficial tagline. Deanna: Yes. Beth: Nobody cares about you. Zach: Hopefully you're listening to this on a Monday morning, first thing, right? It's really motivational. Beth: It's really, it's nobody cares about you. So that's harsh but it's true. I mean, if you've listened to any handful of our episodes, it's a constant theme, it's not about you. Your marketing, it's not about you. Your marketing is about your customer, your marketing. It's not about how long you've been in business and your features and benefits. It's about what are your customer's pain points and how can you help solve them? So you put your customer first and sales. That's a pretty big no-brainer. You're having good customer first conversations with them in sales. But then when it comes to marketing, when it comes to writing things down, people just kind of freak out and their brains break and they just need to talk about who they are and how great they are because they're worried you won't know. But I think it's that. It has to be about your customer. It has to be about your customer's pain points and solving their problems. It's not about you and how long you've been in business or the features and benefits of your products. It's results.
Steve: Okay. So then I have one question based on that, being that it's about your results. And I actually like both of you to give your take on this. A lot of times and being in sales, I'm on the front lines, as far as the questions that we receive from Venveo and questions that clients have, problems that they have and things like that, as well as you Deanna, on the account strategy side, one of the things is a website. So if you don't mind, tell me some leading indicators that a building materials brand needs a new website. What is the leading indicator that they need to invest and build out and spend the time and the effort on a new website and possibly give us an example of a manufacturer's website, who's doing it really well? Zach: So this is probably a very unpopular opinion, but I always tend to believe that you should wait as long as possible to not redesign your website. The reason being is there's so many different things you could do today to get better results other than redesigning your website, which is kind of funny because that's a big part of what we do at Venveo. I'm not saying you should never do it but what I am saying is, people jump to that and go, "Oh, our marketing isn't good. Let's redesign our site." I tend to believe that you should only redesign your site when the technology platform that is your website, is actually hurting your ability to execute all of the existing strategy. So there are things you could be doing today to get more leads or drive awareness or connect with your audience, using a bunch of different tactics, whether that's email or social or content or SEO or whatever it might be. If your website is in and on itself, hurting that effort because the technology and the framework around it isn't structured the right way, that's when you should do it. Because you can make copy changes on your site. You can add calls to action on your site. You can make improvements to your site but undergoing a big redesign is a big decision. It's a big commitment and it's a lot of work. And it takes longer to see the return from that because you're going to spend three, six, nine, 12 months redesigning it. And so I always, when someone comes to us and they're like, "Hey, I want you all to redesign our site." We're like, "Well, why? Tell me why? Does the data say you should? Or do you actually just need to improve the copy on your site? Or do you actually just need to think about the UX?" That's probably not what you wanted to hear Steve, but that's like my honest response. Steve: Yeah. That's perfect. And I think it's really true. A lot of times they can be investing in aesthetic changes and like you said, go with the underlying technology that actually drives results. Beth, what is your take on that question? Beth: I mean, I obviously totally agree with Zach. I think a lot of times, there's just a perception that I need to do a website redesign because my site is ugly. I've actually sat in on architects, on a research project, where we watched architects navigate through a website. Now, if you put that website in front of a bunch of marketers, we all had very nitpicky because we're nothing, if not opinionated. We all had very nitpicky things of, "Oh, we don't like this. We don't like that." And architects are known for their high aesthetic requirements, right? That's what makes them good at their job. Not a single architect pointed out any of the things that we, sitting in the marketer's seat, would have thought they would have been like, "Nope, I'm out of here. This is ugly." So it's not simply like, it's not beautiful enough. I think it has to do with, you have to know the why because you are in for the long haul and you are going to want to abandon ship. And your why has to be, we're not able to drive leads and sales. We are misaligned with our business goals. We are not able to launch an e-commerce platform or properly service the channel. We want to have a dealer portal. Something like that, to Zach's point, it's technology or business goal prohibited, then you need to start looking at a website redesign. I think the other is, that would be a technology red flag is, if you want to launch a product and you have to consider a microsite because your website does not allow for that product within your current navigation, or you just literally can't add more pages because of whatever technology issue block, that would be an indicator that you probably need a new website, regardless of how beautiful or not beautiful it is. Zach: Yeah. I mean, what you're talking about there Beth is speed. Beth: Yeah. Zach: How quickly can you launch platforms? How quickly can you integrate within your CRM or other automation tools? I think that's a technology issue for sure. And that's when you should consider it, but to your point, I don't like the way my site looks. There's things you can do to improve that without upending everything. Beth: Right. Exactly. Deanna: So Beth, I want to hear your take on what has been your favorite podcast episode of the last 100? Which one stands out to you? Beth: Just about any time it comes up, I will take any and all data. I'm just a total data nerd. I love insights, I love customer research, I look market research. I just find it absolutely fascinating. We had an incredible conversation with Doug Jennings from Lowe's and he talked a lot about how Lowe's uses their customer data to drive sales and not just drive sales, but like I can recognize that you have not purchased a refrigerator within the last number of months. I also know that based on other data refrigerator purchases typically go up June, July, specifically. So in June, July, you are going to start to get refrigerator newsletters in your inbox. I mean, Doug, if you're listening, I'm like totally boiling down to just some very, very basic stuff. The incredibly intricate work that you do, forgive me for this very basic example but that's really incredible. As a manufacturer on the flip side, if you market to contractors and you have a contractor in your past purchase funnel, but you know they haven't purchased from me in 18 months, I know that renovations typically go up in the fall time and I know he's going to have some renovation projects. My product is specifically the best for single story home renovation projects in this specific geographic area where he is. I'm going to start targeting him in August. You can't tell me that that's not compelling. If that starts showing up in your inbox, exactly when you need it, I haven't bought this product but I do have projects coming up for it, you are the one I'm purchasing from. That's your email marketing to a whole new level because you're using it based on data. I've totally diatribed. See, this is what I'm talking about. Any data, I just love it because it means that you're basically making marketing science and able to move borderline in fact. That's powerful stuff. I love it. I just absolutely love it. Steve: I could be wrong, but I think everyone at Venveo really likes data. Beth: Yeah. We like it so much. Steve: Yeah. I think we all get that. Deanna: It makes my heart happy when you're talking about being able to see those correlations and being able to have those insights going into a campaign. It's so reassuring and validating to enter a project that way.
Steve: Zach, what are some of the biggest challenges the companies have to overcome when launching a digital marketing strategy? This is a big question but maybe just the top three takeaways or what comes to your mind? What are the biggest challenges that companies have to overcome when launching a digital strategy? Zach: We've interviewed a lot of people on the show that we've talked to them about getting off the ground when it comes to digital marketing. And I think the common thread that I've seen is just that they don't need to feel like they have to do everything at once. It's like biting off something small and doing that really, really, really well. And then stacking additional things on top of it once you get that down. Because the hard thing about digital marketing is that there's so much you could be doing. And part of the reason why we have this podcast is to try to help people figure out, well, where do I start? But if you just look at all that, instead of figuring out, well, where's the one area where I'm feeling like I'm going to get the most impact, instead of doing that, people go, "I got to do everything," and then they don't know what to measure, they don't know what's working, they don't have the right insights into Beth's point earlier. You just don't have the right data. You don't know how to collect that. I think that's the big issue. I would also kind of point back to Beth's thing is you can be doing a lot. You can have a lot of activity but you don't know that activity is actually pointing back to sales. And so that's why analytics and data is critical. And it's also why feedback from your sales team is really important. One thing we always try to do at Venveo is whenever we bring on a client, we also make sure that there's a really good feedback loop from sales to marketing, to ensure that as leads come in, those leads are being validated. We're understanding which leads are working, which ones are not. Not very qualified. I would argue that those two things are critical. It's just focusing on a smaller area when you're launching and then making sure that you've got the right measurement tools and right tracking and analytics and feedback from your team to know what's working and what's not. Deanna: That's awesome. So Zach you're at this point, running an agency of almost 40 people. We know that you launched Venveo in your dorm room over a decade ago. So when you look at Venveo, what it used to be and what it's become now, does it match your vision? Does it match your expectation? Zach: Well, and technically I didn't start it in my dorm room. I started doing what I do in my dorm room and I think I launched then Venveo officially, after I moved off campus. I want to make sure there's a clear distinction. Deanna: Zach never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Zach: I'm just kidding. I didn't really set out to create a company of this size. I just really like the work. I really like the work and I'm after the work. I like getting results and I like the aspect of how marketing right now, there's science and there's art. And I think that's where I'm personally bent. So I would argue that it's probably better than what I envisioned. I'm not just saying that because you guys are on the podcast but it's been really cool. I mean, for me, it's been a big triumph of my life to be able to do this. And I think a big part of it is the people too. If I didn't like you all, this would be horrible. I mean that. Who you work with is everything. And I can't think of one person... I'm so nervous to be honest with you guys. I'm so nervous when we hire somebody because I'm like, if they disrupt this thing, I'm going to be so mad at them because we don't have cliques. We don't. Deanna: I remember my husband telling me that he read a statistic once. It was something along the lines of basically 20% of the employees do 80% of the work at an organization. And he said that to me. And I was like, “Not at Venveo.” Beth: Not at Venveo. Nope. Deanna: I couldn't even think of one person that that applied to here. Steve: Yeah. Zach: Nick? Deanna: Nick. Other than Nick. Zach: Yeah, other than Nick. Deanna: What does that guy even do? Zach: Nick is the head of our data and analytics, for those of you don't know him. He's incredible. Beth: He's the literal best. Zach: He's incredible.
Deanna: So I have kind of a follow up question to that. So how do you help maintain the company culture as it grows and as it scales? We are growing really quickly. We're all working to scale our roles and to bring new employees on. How do you keep that culture, as it gets larger? Zach: There's a really good book that I read years ago that I've tried to model a lot of Venveo after. There's this book. If you haven't read it, it's called The Outsiders. They do like an excerpt and research and 10 or 12 different companies that have outperformed their industry. And one of the things that really resonated with me in that book, is how much the companies that succeeded focused on decentralization and autonomy. So in comparison, a centralized organization would be like Apple and Steve Jobs was there. It was like everything pointed to Steve. All decisions came to him, and that worked for Apple. But for us, I've always tried to create an organization where people feel the weight and the pressure and the autonomy to do their job and to do it well. So, it's really apparent when they're doing well and it's really apparent when they're not. You tend to recruit people that like that because it's very apparent when you're interviewing and then be like that's our expectation. And so from a culture perspective, I think that's worked out really well because we have people who naturally want to win. And I think everyone thinks they want to win, but not everyone can thrive in that kind of environment. And so I think it's worked out well but I mean, I would ask you guys, is this a good answer or am I totally off? Like, this is my perception and you guys can be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, Zach, it's not." Do you know what I'm saying? Steve: We're afraid to say. Zach: You're afraid to say. Awkward silence. The episode's ending. Steve: Tell us how you really feel, on the air. No, I think you're exactly right, Zach and I think what we have is essentially you've brought experts in their field together and you've said do your work. Do your work well. You have the freedom to be able to do what you do really well without that centralized approach. And that's very effective. Zach: I just tell people, I'm like, "Hey, I don't care when you work just as long as you get your 80 hours a week in. That's perfectly fine with me." Steve: We're tracking it. Zach: Yeah. Deanna: Love it. Beth: Zach, you said a long time ago to me, it's like years ago, when we really started to grow and now we're starting to hire, in the interview process more frequently, you said we hire for culture first and talent second. And I think we've stayed really true to that and that's what makes the difference. To your point, one, we love everyone we work with. But two, we spend a lot of time with these people and our clients spend a lot of time with our team. If I don't like your personality in a work environment, chances are your client might not like your personality in a working relationship. And that's going to be detrimental to the partnership that Venveo is able to offer them, frankly, the results that we're able to achieve. And I think that's really made a big difference in who we are and how we function as a team. Now you're allowed to be an individual. We want you to be whoever you are, but you're not allowed to be a jerk. Deanna: I can speak to that a little bit too, Zach. You mentioned giving employees the ownership and the weight. And I think we all feel that. And I say that in a good way. If I think about leaving Venveo and I'm like, "Who would take care of my clients? They're like my children and I have been given the responsibility of managing them and of cultivating them and helping them grow." And I think it speaks to our retention as well. Our culture and our retention, the idea of leaving them is painful to me. I don't know how I would even do it. So I definitely think you have hired people who want to win and want to win for our clients. Zach: Good. I'm glad we're doing that. I think it's really good. I know this section, it might feel like it's about Venveo but I think it's valid for anybody who's involved in hiring and building culture, which is, I've always believed that if you create really good boundaries for people and you give them responsibility and ownership but at the same time you tell them like, "Hey, you're going to make a mistake and I'm going to own that for you." That creates the right kind of trust with people because if your team isn't willing to risk, because they're afraid of how you're going to respond, you will only get smaller as an organization, no matter how many people you have. And so that for me, has been really important is, whenever somebody comes on board at Venveo, I always try to tell them like, "Hey, I want you to know that you're going to make a mistake and it'll probably be huge. And I want you to know that I'm going to own that for you and that's going to be my mistake because I want you to know how important it is for you to feel like you can make a mistake or you can do something wrong and it's not the end of the world." Deanna: Absolutely. Steve: So I have one more question for Zach and then we can bring it to a close with one question that I want both of you to chime in on. Zach, what is your favorite podcast, besides this one? What was your favorite podcast? Zach: Oh gosh. I like all of our episodes. For our listeners, there's episodes we've recorded, we haven't released because we just thought they weren't very good. So I like all of our episodes. Just saying that. We care a lot about the content. I don't know if you all saw this. Wall Street Journal has linked to a couple of our episodes. It's pretty wild. Deanna: I didn't know that. Zach: Yeah. I was doing some research on our backlinks and I was like, "Oh, we've hit..." I know, right? Such a digital marketer. I'm like looking at our domain authority increase and like what's going on here. And it's like, Inc is linking to us, Wall Street Journal is linking to us. I was like, "Oh, that's really cool." Steve: You sound surprised. I heard that and I was like, "Oh, it make sense to me." Zach: Well, yes. I mean, it's cool. It's just cool to see. I just wish they'd let me know, instead of me getting update, like in the DA report or something. The most recent one I could think back to is episode 71 with Lisa Prestifilippo. She works for the metal sales manufacturing corporation. She talks about Amazon versus Home Depot versus Lowe's. Beth: So good. Zach: It was so good. Beth: It was so good. Zach: Because she says things and I'm like, "Man, I can't believe you said that in that way." And it was just very insightful from a manufacturer's perspective who sells online, at that amount and that level. I thought it was really helpful because we get the question a lot about, "Hey, well, should we list on this website? Should we sell online here? Should we do this here?" And having a manufacturer give that kind of information from their perspective, not just hearing it from us, I think is really helpful. I point to that episode a lot in talking to people in our e-commerce strategy that we provide. So I really liked that one. But honestly, I really like all of them. There's people we've had on multiple times too. I really like the ones where it's mostly just me talking. I really like hearing myself talk. Deanna: Don’t we all. Beth: We all do. We all feel that way. Steve: Okay. I have one question that I wanted both of you to chime in on. Beth, if you could give every manufacturer one piece of advice, regarding their marketing strategy, which is a very hard question to answer and to boil down, if you could give every manufacturer one piece of advice regarding their digital marketing strategy, what would it be? Beth: I'm trying to think of something different than it's not about you. Zach: Well, I have my answer. You want me to go first? Beth: Yeah. Zach, go first and then I'll just rephrase whatever Zach says and people will think I'm smart too. Zach: I think that digital marketing and marketing as a whole, is like Starbucks, right? Starbucks took a very simple idea and they executed it incredibly well. It's like, we feel like we have to come up with these huge, massive ideas in our marketing and really what it is, it's about consistency. It's like going to the gym. I want to have abs when I go to the beach. In order for me to have abs, I have to consistently go to the gym. And so I think with marketing, you've got to be very, very consistent and you have to execute at an incredibly high level. And as marketers, I do this. It's like we can rebuild everything. We can do all of these new things. And we love to do new things. And granted, those things are important and you can have big wins there but without consistency and without incredible execution, like making sure that you do it on a daily level, it doesn't matter. Really, you just won't see wins. People are like, "Hey, I want to run... I want to test this thing out for three months," and they don't do it at all. Beth: Yeah. I totally agree with that. Zach: Just don't even do it. Beth: Yeah. Zach: Save your time. I was talking to somebody the other day and they're like, "Hey, I want to try building an online community for six months." I was like, "Why don't you save yourself a lot of heartache and not do it at all?" This is what I told them. Because you are just going to start to win barely, in that amount of time. Our attention span today, as people, it's like a goldfish. So for you to create momentum in your marketing, you've got to do it over and over and over and over again. When you're beating a dead horse, that's when you're starting to actually break through. Deanna: That's really good. I feel like I just learned so much. Zach: Just soak in that for a moment. Deanna: Let's just all just take a moment of silence for how smart Zach is. Beth: I think if I could say anything I 1000% agree. I think the other thing is the first piece that you said, which is keeping it simple. Let's avoid that trigger that makes us feel like if it was really truly marketing, it would be something completely brand new. What your audience needs to see is an answer to their question. And so if they didn't research some newfangled term that you came up, that makes you feel like your product is bigger than it is. Starbucks sells coffee. Now we make very complicated orders and we feel very fancy doing it. But it's coffee and a cup, man. That's really clear. I know exactly what box to put them in, in my brain and all of the reasons that I'm willing to pay $9 for the concoction that I can dig up for them. And I think it has to be the same for your marketing. If you sell nails, like "What do you sell?" "Nails." Not like titanium, blah, blah, blah, blah board holders. "I sell nails." "Good. I need nails." "Great. I don't need titanium board holders. I came here looking for nails." Let's just get to the point and say what it is. I think the last thing I would say is I was just researching about the chatbot project that we're working on and came across this quote that we all know so well, but it's that what gets measured gets done. Zach: Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Beth: And there's this preconceived notion within people outside of marketing who want to engage with marketing, that marketing is smoke and mirrors. And digital marketing should be the exact opposite. There should be no confusion about how much money you spent and what you achieved with those efforts. You should be able to measure almost anything that you're doing and have a strong understanding of whether or not it's working. Child: Mommy. Mommy. Zach: We're in COVID. This is happening. Deanna: Working from home. Zach: Right. So we're going to wrap up the episode now, if I'm allowed to do that, but I want to just quickly thank- Deanna: Yes please. Zach: … Deanna and Steve for doing last episode and doing this episode. This was their idea. Beth: You guys crushed it. I love it. You crushed it. Zach: You guys did really well but you're never coming on the show again. Yeah No, I'm just kidding. Deanna: Yeah. Thank you for entrusting us with all this hard work that you've built over the last 100 episodes. It's a big responsibility. Zach: Right? It's cool. Deanna: I feel honored to be trusted and be leading it. Zach: Awesome. Well for our listeners out there, I just want to personally thank each and every one of you, this is a lot of work, but it's a lot of fun and I encourage you to make sure you share the episode. If you've got colleagues or you want to write us a review, that means a lot to us on Apple podcasts. But, until next time I'm Zach Williams alongside Beth Pop-Nikolov, Deanna Murphy and Steve Coffey. Thanks everybody. Voiceover: You've been listening to Smarter Building Materials Marketing with Zach Williams and Beth PopNikolov. To get the resources mentioned in this podcast visit Venveo.com/podcast. Thank you for listening.